John SAUNDERS1827

Name
John SAUNDERS
Given names
John
Surname
SAUNDERS
Birth
Residence 1798
Note: John Saunders was a resident of Rathbawn before the earliest records of the Coolatin Estate have ind…
Residence 1800
Note: John Saunders was a resident of Rathbawn Townland of Wicklow, just north of Knocknaboley on the Co…

Residence 1804
Note: The earliest mention of John Saunders of Rathbawn in the Coolatin Estate records was in 1804 in the Rental Book (MS 6071). John Saunders was listed as an undertenant of Joseph Coates farming about 3 Irish acres.
Birth of a daughter
#1
Lucy SAUNDERS
July 1, 1805
Note: DOB taken from tombstone. I have assigned Lucy to be a daughter of John Saunders rather than Andrew Saunders because her husband Frank Dunn took over John Saunder's lease by 1839. Also Lucy was married in Hacketstown Parish which includes Rathbawn but not Knocknaboley where Andrew lived.
Birth of a son
#2
John SAUNDERS
1809
Note: I have designated young John Saunders as the son of John Saunders of Rathbawn because he was listed as one of the residents of the lease on Rathbawn in 1827. He was too old to be a son of James Saunders who was also a resident of the lease. John Saunders, the leaseholder, was not listed as a resident and may have already died by 1827.
Property
Lease on Rathbawn Townland, Wicklow

Note: John was an undertenant and tenant on Rathbawn Townland (modern name Rathbane) on the Coolatin Estate for may years. Rathbawn, part of the Hacketstown Parish, was east of Hacketstown and bordered Knocknaboley's northern boundary. But in 1820 John Saunders was granted a lease on Rathbawn for the Life In Being of Andrew Saunders, son of James Saunders of Knocknaboley. John Saunders leased parts 75,76,77 of the Townland as shown on the 1840 map of Knocknabley found in the Coolatin Records.

Event
Received Lease on Coolatin Estate
1820

Note: Mr Joseph Coates had a long held lease from the Rockingham/Fitzwilliam Estate. When he died the subtenants requested that the leased land be split amongst the subtenants. The estate agreed and John Saunders was elevated from subtenant to actual lessor with a coveted lease agreement with the estate.

Death about 1827
Note: The date of John Saunder's death is not precisely known, but several records point to it being about…
Probate 1828 (12 months after death)
Note: The following entry probably refers to John Saunders of Rathbawn (Rathbane) which is part of Hackets…
Family with parents - View family
father
brother
John SAUNDERS + … … - View family
daughter
5 years
son

Residence

John Saunders was a resident of Rathbawn before the earliest records of the Coolatin Estate have indicated. When the 1798 Rebellion spread through Carlow and Wicklow many residents lost property and lives. Those who survived were able to apply to the British government for reparations. John Saunders of Rathbawn was one of those claimants.

1798 Claimants and Surrenders John Saunders Residence Rawbawn (Rathbawn) County Wicklow Place Loss Sustained Residence County Loss Sustained Wicklow Nature Of Loss Cloaths, Leather, Shoes Sum Claimed 6/-/10 Sum Allowed 5/19/9t

Residence

John Saunders was a resident of Rathbawn Townland of Wicklow, just north of Knocknaboley on the Coolatin Estate.

In 1819 John Saunder's name appears on a list of undertenants of Joseph Coates Farm on Rathbawn, found in the book MS 6036 in the National Library of Ireland (NLI).

IN MS 6038 (1821-1822) John's name first appeared in the Coolatin Rentals as a lessee of the estate:

\"John Saunders inserted for parts of the lands taken out ... returned by Joseph Coates ...\"

643 John Saunders, part of Rathbawn: In lease for him for the life of Andrew Saunders eldest son of James Saunders of Knocknaboley, 2 years old and 21 years from Lady Day 1820. Expires 1841. Life in Being.

In addition the 1824 Tithe book for Rathbawn lists John Saunders and James Saunders as tenants with equal amount of land on Rathbawn. Since John's lease mentions James Saunders of Knocknaboley it is likely this is the same person. The John Saunders and Andrew Saunders families were clearly linked.

Residence

The earliest mention of John Saunders of Rathbawn in the Coolatin Estate records was in 1804 in the Rental Book (MS 6071). John Saunders was listed as an undertenant of Joseph Coates farming about 3 Irish acres.

Property

John was an undertenant and tenant on Rathbawn Townland (modern name Rathbane) on the Coolatin Estate for may years. Rathbawn, part of the Hacketstown Parish, was east of Hacketstown and bordered Knocknaboley's northern boundary. But in 1820 John Saunders was granted a lease on Rathbawn for the Life In Being of Andrew Saunders, son of James Saunders of Knocknaboley. John Saunders leased parts 75,76,77 of the Townland as shown on the 1840 map of Knocknabley found in the Coolatin Records.

Event

Mr Joseph Coates had a long held lease from the Rockingham/Fitzwilliam Estate. When he died the subtenants requested that the leased land be split amongst the subtenants. The estate agreed and John Saunders was elevated from subtenant to actual lessor with a coveted lease agreement with the estate.

Death

The date of John Saunder's death is not precisely known, but several records point to it being about 1827.

John received a lease on a farm on Rathbawn Townland, next to Knocknaboley, from the Fitzwilliam estate about 1819. Before that, it is known he was an undertenant of Joseph Coates on Rathbawn and received his own tenancy when the larger farm leases expired.

John Saunders was listed on the Rathbawn Tithe Applotment of 1822 but was not on the list of tenants on the estate in 1827 (MS 6082, NLI). His (probable) 18 year old son John and his (probable) nephew James were the only tenants on his lease at that time. John Saunders remained on the official Rent Books for the Coolatin Estate for many years but his lease changed to John Saunders Exors by 1844.

Rathbawn Townland 1827 John Saunders age 18 No wife Farmer James Saunders age 38 28 4 male 1 female children Farmer

Probate

The following entry probably refers to John Saunders of Rathbawn (Rathbane) which is part of Hacketstown Parish of Leighlin Diocese. The date agrees with the records of the Coolatin Estate which shows John had been replaced by his 18 year old son on the lease in 1828.

Leighlin Administrations 1700 - 1857 Transcription

First name(s) John Last name Saunders Year 1828 Place Rathbawn Diocese LEIGHLIN County Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois (Queen's), Wexford, Wicklow Record set Leighlin Administrations 1700 - 1857 Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Wills & probate Collections from Ireland

Shared note

It is not known and certainly not proved that John Saunders and Andrew Saunders were brothers. Clearly they were related, since John Saunder's lease relied on the Life of Andrew's grandson Andrew, son of James - as is mentioned several times in Rental Books for the Coolatin Estate.

The two men lived within a mile of each other and were contemporaries in Estate Records from 1804 through 1827.

Shown are parts of two documents from the Coolatin Estate Tenants list that show the two men were the only tenants named Saunders. Additionally, they show that Andrew was the father of James and James is mentioned in John's lease.

So the most logical conclusion is that they were probably brothers.

Note

John Saunders of Rathbawn

  1. MS 6071. Rents 1803-04. At end of rentals., Undertenants of Jos Coates. John Saunders 3.10. Paid up.
  2. MS 6072. Rents 1805-06. John Saunders, undertenant on Rathbawn, 3.10.
  3. MS 6072. Rents 1808. (This line was marked through.) John Saunders, Rabawn, 3.4.7. (Note: Previous to Mar 1809.)
  4. MS 6078. John Saunders was undertenat of Joseph Coates in Rabaune or Rathbaune 1814-1815 3.4.7.5 John Saunders 1817 arrears 4.12.4
  5. MS 6097. Rents 1842-43. John Saunders Rathbawn. 9.. Life of Andrew Saunders 1820
  6. MS 6095 Rents 1840-41 John Saunders 9.. in Life of Andrew Saunders arrears 8.16, paid 2.15.4 MS 4068. Cash Book. ---22 Mar 1842. John Saunders, Rathbawn, paid rent 2.15.4 ---14 Mar 1843. John Saunders, Knocknaboley??, paid rent 4.17.10 ---24 Mar 1843. John Saunders, Rathbawn, paid 2.15.4 ---31 Oct 1843. John Saunders, Rathbawn, paid 2.14.2
  7. MS 6098. Rents 1843-44. John Saunders 9.. MS 4966. Ledger. John Saunders Rathbaun, pg 132. 'Paid an allowance to discharge arrears.' Feb 1844. 8.15.12.5
  8. MS 6099. Rents 1844-45. John Saunders Exors. 9.. arrears
  9. MS 6101. Rents 1846-47. John Saunders Exors. 9..
Note

The townland immediately north of Knocknaboley is known today as Rathbane. It appears in historical documents as Rawbane, Rabane and almost always as Rathbawn in the Coolatin Books. It is clear, by comparing names in the Coolatin maps, Tithe Books of 1824, Coolatin resident names of 1827, 1839, 1848 that the two townlands are the same. There is another townland named Rathbawn in Carlow west of the Tinahely/Hacketstwon road that is sometimes confused with Rathbane/Rathbawn of Wicklow.

ResidenceJoseph Coates Undertenants On Rathbawn in 1819Joseph Coates Undertenants On Rathbawn in 1819
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ResidenceTithe Applotment, 1824 for Rathbawn TownlandTithe Applotment, 1824 for Rathbawn Townland
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ResidenceJohn Saunders - 1804 Undertenat of Joseph CoatesJohn Saunders - 1804 Undertenat of Joseph Coates
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PropertySaunders Tenant Leases, Coolatin Estate 1822
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PropertyRathbawn Townland Map With Index
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EventJoseph Coates Subtenants Request Leases in 1820Joseph Coates Subtenants Request Leases in 1820
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EventList of New Lessees on Rathbawn, Including John SaundersList of New Lessees on Rathbawn, Including John Saunders
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DeathSaunders and Griffins in 1844 Rent Books
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Media objectSaunders Tenant Leases, Coolatin Estate 1822
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